精华 学习历史:黑暗的中世纪?

本帖由 qwerty02012-11-11 发布。版面名称:基督教会

  1. qwerty0

    qwerty0 阿Q先生 ID:106531 VIP

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    对于其他几个“迫害”科学家的例子,翻出老帖子。

    维萨留斯的故事

     
  2. focus on today

    focus on today 资深人士 ID:85601

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    约伯记 26:7-8 神将北极铺在空中,将大地悬在虚空。将水包在密云中,云却不破裂
    NIV:He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing.
    KJB:He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing

    这句话曾让我感叹,即使这书不是神写的,古人的想象力也是今人不可及的 -这句话完全超出当时人的认知的最远的边缘
     
  3. qwerty0

    qwerty0 阿Q先生 ID:106531 VIP

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    本来以为维萨留斯的情况很简单,惊讶地发现百度居然这样讲:维萨留斯是与哥白尼齐名的近代科学的开创者,他不迷信权威,坚持从实际出发研究人体,以自己的解剖学成就指出了被神学奉为经典的加仑的学说和《圣经》中的错误,他因此被教会所迫害,成为近代科学革命中为科学献身的第一人。对盖伦的“三位一体”学说提出挑战。书中论述了男女肋骨数相同,从而否定了女人是由男人的一根肋骨演变的说法

    花上5分钟时间放狗,即可明白这些粗暴指责是怎么来的,除了#46以后:
    1、盖伦的医学统治了欧洲一千多年,直到遇到维萨留斯的挑战,盖伦代表了拿一千年的医学最高水平,并不是被教会捧起来的。盖伦是伟大的,他的学术错误是科学正常发展的一部分

    2、维萨留斯遇到的麻烦不是来自教会,而是来自世俗力量:
    2.1 接着在1539年,他又对盖伦的解剖学指南《论解剖程序》做了改进. one of his former professors published an attack on this version.
    2.2 1541... ,However, some people still chose to follow Galen and resented Vesalius for calling attention to such glaring mistakes
    2.3 Vesalius took up a position in the court, where he had to deal with the other physicians mocking him as being a barber

    3、教会迫害?
    This elicited a new round of attacks on his work that called for him to be punished by the emperor. In 1551, Charles V commissioned an inquiry in Salamanca to investigate the religious implications of his methods. Vesalius' work was cleared by the board, but the attacks continued

    另外,没有找到他与教会太多的交集,只有这点小资料:维萨留斯的父亲是查理五世的贴身侍卫,他的巨著《人体的构造》就是献给查理五世。重复一遍,这暗示着查理五世是认同这本书的出版,并提供保护。查理五世“为天主教奉献了全部忠诚乃至狂热”
     
  4. qwerty0

    qwerty0 阿Q先生 ID:106531 VIP

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    阿Q同样对维萨留斯所受的教育感兴趣,简单搜索一下他相关所有学校的情况:

    1、早年,到共同生活兄弟会学习希腊语和拉丁语.
    简单介绍:共同生活兄弟会, 14世纪晚期在Deventer地区由神秘主义者Gerhard Groote和Florentius Radewijns成立。目的在于使个人的神圣化、做谦卑的基督的谦卑的追随者

    2、1528年,维萨里进入鲁汶大学修读美术

    In the 15th century the civil administration of the town of Leuven, with the support of John IV, Duke of Brabant, a prince of the House of Valois, made a formal request to the Holy See (圣座, 代表整个天主教会) for a university.

    Pope Martin V issued a papal bull dated 9 December 1425 founding the University in Leuven as a Studium Generale.

    3、1533年维萨留斯决定进入巴黎大学就读医学
    巴黎大学成立于12世纪中,并在约1160至1250年间并承认为University approximately

    Like the other early medieval universities (Bologna, Oxford, Salamanca, Cambridge, Padua), the University of Paris was already well established before it received a specific foundation act from the Church in 1200.

    The university had four faculties: Arts, Medicine, Law, and Theology.
     
  5. qwerty0

    qwerty0 阿Q先生 ID:106531 VIP

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    指责:”塞尔维特在《基督教信仰的复兴》一书中提出血液循环的见解,被烤两个多小时后死去“

    关于天主教会怎样对待异端的问题,以后再学习,现在先跳过。
     
  6. qwerty0

    qwerty0 阿Q先生 ID:106531 VIP

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    指责:科学家帕利西因说化石是动物的遗体而不是“造物主的游戏”,被“宗教裁判所”判处死刑

    又是一个莫须有!

    Bernard Palissy (c. 1510 – c. 1589) was a French Huguenot potter, hydraulics engineer and craftsman, famous for having struggled for sixteen years to imitate Chinese porcelain

    他是作为一个Potter广为人知的,尽管现代认为他在科学上的贡献被人忽略。

    关于化石:
    Ten years later, Bernard Palissy began to lecture on the natural world. He used fossils as props for his talks. Unlike Agricola and Gesner, Palissy recognized that fossils are remains of living organisms. Throughout the 16th century, scholars, including Jerome Cardan, Andrea Cesalpino, and Gabriel Fallopio, debated the nature of fossils.

    Palissy discussed fossils extensively. Like Xenophanes of Colophon, he believed them to be remnants of animals and plants. He firmly rejected the idea that they were detritus of the biblical flood, suggesting that inland fossils are found on site as the result of the congelation of a lake. He recognized the relation between these fossils and living species and, in some cases, extinct ones. He was one of the first to hold a reasonably correct view of the process of petrification.

    关于宗教:
    Palissy converted to Protestantism in about 1546. He was one of the first Huguenots in Saintes, and was much persecuted for his religion. He was imprisoned in Bordeaux around 1559

    帕利西之死

    Wiki:
    Despite the protection of the nobles and the court, the fanatical outburst of 1588 associated with the War of the Three Henrys led to his being thrown into the Bastille. Although Henry III offered him his freedom if he would recant, Palissy refused to save his life on any such terms. Condemned to death when nearly eighty years of age, he died in a Bastille dungeon in 1589.

    Strangescience:
    ...fossil...He didn't escape every theological tight spot quite so easily; more than once, he was imprisoned for his Calvinist beliefs. Being an alchemist didn't help him avoid accusations of heresy, either. After two especially difficult years of imprisonment, he died in 1590.


    http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Bernard_Palissy.aspx
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Palissy
    http://www.strangescience.net/palissy.htm
     
  7. qwerty0

    qwerty0 阿Q先生 ID:106531 VIP

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    * 阿莫里:巴黎大学教授,1210年,因宣扬泛神论被死后追审,墓穴被挖,十个弟子全部被处决
    * 西克尔:巴黎大学教授,因在物理研究上有所谓异端言论,被教会活活打死

    关于这两个故事,俺用尽阿Q所知的所有放狗方法,无法找到阿莫里和西克尔是何方神圣。中文网页分别是十几万和二十几万个搜索结果,以上两句话一字不差被无数网站重复引用,但是没有任何一个地方能够提供任何一点点其他信息

    不禁叹道:这两句话包含了11条人命,相信最开始写这两句话的人是知道一些信息的,为什么他可以只凭结论去做这样严重的指控?其他一字不改转播这两条消息的人,不加任何甄别,任何求证,就将他们当成真理转载?

    是,阿Q愚钝,愣是找不到这两个人的资料,但恐怕那么多聪明人没有下这个功夫?

    是的,找不到资料不等于证明这两个“迫害”不存在,但是窃以为对待历史不应该是这种态度的
     
  8. qwerty0

    qwerty0 阿Q先生 ID:106531 VIP

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    回头看看古典时期的两个故事,先是图使馆:

    * 在教皇格里高利一世(公元590年 ~公元604年)时期,古罗马图书馆也被付之一炬

    有个小小的疑问。“古罗马图书馆也被付之一炬”这句话被无数中文网站,包括中文Wiki,类似的,转载的这些网站没有提供关于这件事情的任何其他信息。放狗并没有找到一个被烧毁的古罗马图书馆,这个著名古代图书馆列表也没有一个古罗马图书馆。于是再感叹一次,在对待历史的态度上也能闻到文革的硝烟!

    不知,这个古罗马图书馆是亚历山大图书馆的笔误?也不对,亚历山大图书馆并不是在格利高里一世期间被毁的!

     
  9. qwerty0

    qwerty0 阿Q先生 ID:106531 VIP

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    指控:

    * 希柏提亚(375-415) 是史上第一个为人所知的女数学家。吉朋在《罗马帝国衰亡史》中叙述时说:“她由车上被拉下来,剥脱衣服到一丝不挂,被拖至教堂,为一群野蛮而无人性的狂徒,用尖利的蚝将她的肉由骨上剥削下来,手脚砍下,抛掷火焰之中

    以后再慢慢学习,有点复杂
     
  10. qwerty0

    qwerty0 阿Q先生 ID:106531 VIP

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    谢谢Happy Angel的意见。

    因为此楼是历史楼,不是宗教楼。俺的初衷是想搞清楚,承认有一位至高者,承认人的原罪,承认有一个至高者,信奉以“爱”为总纲的圣经的基督教徒,在历史上究竟干了什么坏事?所以此楼中讲“广义”基督教,包括天主教、东正教、新教,可能还有其他别的宗派

    至于对救赎的理解如何,对圣母怎么看...等等,俺认为不管此楼的主题。同时俺也赞同cvictor的这个看法:“算基督徒的时候,把天主教徒算进去。逃避罪责时,又说是什么天主教徒摩门教徒干的”

    其次,什么是“好事”,什么是“坏事”,是一个貌似容易,其实根本不可能理清楚的概念。这里争取采用CFC的主流价值观,包括科学“至上”,任何阻碍现代科学发展的都是坏事,等等

    同时,对于历史上基督徒做过的不管好事还是坏事,“基督教”在里面起到什么样的作用,也是不容易定义的。还有,真信徒、假信徒等等,更是难以说清楚,也不是此楼试图去解释的问题
     
  11. qwerty0

    qwerty0 阿Q先生 ID:106531 VIP

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    简单看看4世纪末和5世纪初相关的历史背景:

    *希柏提亚和亚历山大图书馆所在的亚历山大城在前80年按托勒密十世的意愿正式受罗马管理
    *313年,罗马帝国皇帝君土坦丁一世协同理吉纽颁布米兰上谕,容许宗教自由,给予基督教合法的地位,从此结束了二百多年迫害基督教的历史
    * 狄奥多西一世在380年受洗,并在392年正式宣布基督教为罗马帝国唯一的合法宗教,并取缔所有其他宗教
    *当时亚历山大城是埃及、希腊、中东等地文化的大熔炉,在被君士坦丁堡取代之前,是仅次于罗马的第二大城市。尽管基督教不久前被定为唯一合法宗教,但宗教冲突仍然非常厉害
    *希柏提亚生命后期亚历山大的主教是区利罗(Cyrillus Alexandrinus),其前任提阿非罗(Theophilus of Alexandria),两人都属于鹰派人物,与埃及总督奥雷斯特斯(Orestes)在亚历山大的统治权上有很多冲突
     
  12. qwerty0

    qwerty0 阿Q先生 ID:106531 VIP

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    狄奥多西一世被指责为“对异教徒的迫害更烈”,他在391年颁布的系列“Theodosian decrees”可能是第一个正式“迫害”异教徒的法令。这是狄奥多西一世诏书的一部分:
    http://www.maat.it/livello2-i/editti-teodosio-i.htm

    The decree of February 391: prohibited to enter in temples

    - renewed the putting to the ban of any sacrifice, public or private
    - prohibited the traditional ceremonies of State still in use in Rome
    - nobody can approach the sacrifical altars, can walk inside the temples or can worship images forged by human hands
    - "Testamentary Disqualification for Christian Apostates: Those who betray the sacred faith and profane holy baptism are shut off from association of all and from giving testimony.

    They may not exercise the right of making a will, nor enter upon any inheritance; they may not be made anyone's heir."

    The decree of 16 june 391: extension of the prohibitions

    emanated in Aquileia, extends the previous dispositions also to Egypt, where Alexandria enjoyed, from ancient date, of special privileges relating to local cults, comprised the sacrifical ceremonies .

    Prohibited the pagans pray in their homes

    The third decree of 391: destroy the temples

    In Alexandria the bishop Teophilus began a systematic campaign of destruction of the temples.

    The fourth decree 8 November of 392: pain of death

    - This decree instituted the death penalty for carrying out pagan sacrificial rituals and it demanded the confiscation of the property used in such practices
    - the confiscation of the places where they carried out the rituals
    - heavy fines for the decurions who did not apply the law faithfully
    - the prohibition of libations, altars, votive offerings , torches, domestic divinity of the hearth, crowns and garlands, bands on the trees, etc.

    拉丁文原文(?):http://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Codex_Theodosianus_-_Liber_XVI#X.10
     
  13. Happy Angel

    Happy Angel 新手上路 ID:94351

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    谢谢您的解释。

    的确,历史所展示的仅仅是“现象”而已。
     
  14. qwerty0

    qwerty0 阿Q先生 ID:106531 VIP

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    来自一个反基督教网站的更多信息,关于狄奥多西一世等几个罗马皇帝prosecute异教徒:
    http://www.stopthereligiousright.org/theodosius.htm

    Codex Theodosianus 16.1.2, February, 380, Theodosius and Gratian

    We order all those who follow this law to assume the name of Catholic Christians, and considering others as demented and insane, we order that they shall bear the infamy of heresy; and when the Divine vengeance which they merit has been appeased, they shall afterwards be punished in accordance with Our resentment, which we have acquired from the judgment of Heaven

    Codex Theodosianus 16.7.1, 381

    The ability and right of making wills shall be taken from those who turn from Christians to pagans, and the testament of such an one, if he made any, shall be abrogated after his death

    Codex Theodosianus 11.7.13

    The Christian Emperor Theodosius and Gratian decreed the mandatory observation of the first day of the week as the Lord's day. -- 这就是我们星期天

    Codex Theodosianus 16.7.2

    Theodosius I promulgated a law that took away the testamentary rights of Christians who returned to paganism.

    "We deny to Christians and the faithful who have adopted pagan rites and religion all power of making a will in favor of any person whatsoever, in order that they may be without the Roman law; ... even of enjoying a will with the power of acquiring an inheritance."

    "The Right of Making a Will is denied Christians who enter Temples."

    after the General Council of Chalcedon 451, Emperor Marcian did the clergy's bidding and outlawed public discussions of the nature of Christ.

    decree of January of 381, Theodosius

    If, however, any seditious outbreak should be attempted, We order them to be driven outside the the walls of the City, with relentless violence, and We direct that all Catholic Churches, throughout the entire world, shall be placed under the control of the orthodox bishops who have embraced the Nicene Creed

    In February of 391, 16.7 of the Theodosian Code

    Nobody can approach the sacrificial altars, can walk inside the temples or can worship images forged by human hands.
     
  15. qwerty0

    qwerty0 阿Q先生 ID:106531 VIP

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    同样这个反基督教的网站,提供一些基督教迫害和异教徒反迫害的例子,阿Q仅摘录那些有具体描述的,忽略那些缺乏细节,仅有结论的东西。同时,基督徒毁掉大量异教徒的庙宇、偶像是公认的,不再细述。

    Salminius Hermias Sozomenus, Histories Book 7

    About this period, the bishop of Alexandria, to whom the temple of Dionysus had, at his own request, been granted by the emperor, converted the edifice into a church. The statues were removed, the adyta were exposed; and, in order to cast contumely on the pagan mysteries, he made a procession for the display of these objects; the phalli, and whatever other object had been concealed in the adyta which really was, or seemed to be, ridiculous, he made a public exhibition of. The pagans, amazed at so unexpected an exposure, could not suffer it in silence, but conspired together to attack the Christians.

    They killed many of the Christians, wounded others, and seized the Serapion, a temple which was conspicuous for beauty and vastness and which was seated on an eminence. This they converted into a temporary citadel; and hither they conveyed many of the Christians, put them to the torture, and compelled them to offer sacrifice. Those who refused compliance were crucified, had both legs broken, or were put to death in some cruel manner. When the sedition had prevailed for some time, the rulers came and urged the people to remember the laws, to lay down their arms, and to give up the Serapion.

    ... ... he declared that the Christians who had been slain were blessed, inasmuch as they had been admitted to the honor of martyrdom, and had suffered in defense of the faith. He offered free pardon to those who had slain them, hoping that by this act of clemency they would be the more readily induced to embrace Christianity; and he commanded the demolition of the temples in Alexandria which had been the cause of the popular sedition. It is said that, when this imperial edict was read in public, the Christians uttered loud shouts of joy, because the emperor laid the odium of what had occurred upon the pagans.

    There were still pagans in many cities ... ... and that at last, they even carried their audacity to such a height, as to slay a bishop named Marcellus. This bishop had commanded the demolition of all the temples in the city and villages ... ... He stationed himself at a distance from the scene of conflict, beyond the reach of the arrows ... ... Whilst the soldiers and gladiators were engaged in the assault against the temple, some pagans, discovering that he was alone, hastened to the place where he was separated from the combat; they arose suddenly and seized him, and burnt him alive.

    Seizing this opportunity, Theophilus exerted himself to the utmost to expose the pagan mysteries to contempt.

    Thus this disturbance having been terminated, the governor of Alexandria, and the commander-in-chief of the troops in Egypt, assisted Theophilus in demolishing the heathen temples. These were therefore burned to the ground, and the images of their gods molten into pots and other convenient utensils for the use of the Alexandrian church; for the emperor had instructed Theophilus to distribute them for the relief of the poor. All the images were accordingly broken to pieces, except one statue of the god before mentioned, which Theophilus preserved and set up in a public place; `Lest,´ said he, `at a future time the heathens should deny that they had ever worshipped such gods.

    The Arians, who were still very strong in point of numbers, and who, through the protection formerly granted by Constantius and Valens ... ... but the chief cause of their apprehension was the reasoning power of Eunomius. The emperor, about this period, condemned Eunomius to banishment. This heretic had fixed his residence in the suburbs of Constantinople, and held frequent churches in private houses, where he read his own writings. He induced many to embrace his sentiments, so that the sectarians, who were named after him, became very numerous.
     

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